What is and is not feedback in the workplace?

In this podcast episode, I re-tell the traumatic werk story of being cornered by my supervisors under the guise of "feedback".

I share all the messed up details involved in the interaction, how I responded to it in the moment and how I created an epic escape plan to get out of that job. Tune in to learn how to actually give feedback that is consent-based, trauma-ware and generative.

I call this type of feedback, Feel Good Feedback.

This blog post includes the episode links and full transcription. 

Listen to the episode below:

You can access the podcast episode HERE (available on Spotify, Google Podcasts and Apple Podcasts).

TRANSCRIPTION

SPEAKERS

Joi Louviere, Petra Vega

[00:01:26] Werk stories is a place for women of color to share their experiences in the workplace. We're no longer whispering these stories to our best friends and partners, and then shoving them to the backs of our minds and just dealing. We're talking about bias, equal pay, bad bosses, racist hiring practices, and all the crazy things your co workers have done or said to you.

[00:01:44] to you. This is a safe place to tell those stories. The floor is open y'all. We are telling it all.

[00:01:55] Welcome back to Work Stories. We're going to be talking about feedback today as [00:02:00] our next guest has big thoughts. If you've ever been stuck on how to give feedback to others or what to require from those who give it to you, you have to hear this episode. My name is Petra Vega. I am a black Puerto Rican queer.

[00:02:17] Um, I'm learning that I'm also autistic. So that's been fun. I feel like I'm at the age where I don't even think about it anymore. But I'm 33. I live in New York City in the Bronx. I really come from a background around community organizing. And so things like social justice and anti oppression advocating and, and speaking up for myself has always been like the realm that I'm living in.

[00:02:38] And today coming at you as someone who helps people do that too. Like, how do you speak up at your job? Especially. As a person of color and disabled person, how do you do that? And like, keep your job. So that's what I get to help people to do today. This is like the, if there could, we could sum up all the questions and all the issues people have into one thing.

[00:02:57] It's that, how, how can [00:03:00] I advocate for myself, be myself and keep my job? Sometimes it's like, but can you? Can you? Yes. Just part of what I've worked with people that part of it might be like, You're, your job just might not have the conditions in order for you to do that. And that's just real, where I think that some people can give like, just blanket advice and be like, Yeah, be your authentic self.

[00:03:19] Bring your whole self to wherever you are. And I'm like, that's not good, right? That's really, really not good. Especially when we're not thinking about, you know, What are the identities of certain people? Who are the identities of people that you work with? Like, what's been the history of this organization?

[00:03:32] Are they the type to be like, yeah, bring your whole self, but then as soon as you do and you get reprimanded, you don't get a pay raise, like people stop inviting you to projects that you really care about. So they really have to look at like, what are the conditions? I'll ask about, Kind of like your career development.

[00:03:46] Like, what were your original goals? And then tell us like what you ended up doing. So when I was in high school, I really wanted to be a guidance counselor because I had a really good guidance counselor. Like in middle school, they really helped us out. I felt like, I don't [00:04:00] remember when Mean Girls came out, but we were doing that in middle school.

[00:04:02] And I feel like it was before that movie, like we were just really nasty to each other. And this one guidance counselor, like really gathered us. She was like, girls need to be a girl's girl. Right. Basically like before we use that language. She was like helping us out with that. And so I was like, okay, I want to be that.

[00:04:17] But then when I went to college, I took this intro to psych course and I got a C and I'm not a C student. I'm no shame to anybody who got C's or school's not their thing, but that's just like, I don't, I don't does that, you know? And I was like, Oh, that's a sign. And I was like, let me do something else. And so part of my undergrad work, I had to do like a diversity course.

[00:04:37] And so I took this like intro to women's studies course. And I was like, Oh my God, there's patriarchy and white supremacy. And. homophobia in the world. Like, y'all, we need to end this. Like, I thought I figured it out and I was like, we don't know. It's still here. Like, it's not something from the 60s. And so that just, like, lit a fire in me and really got me to really start to use my voice in a different kind of way.

[00:04:57] Because I grew up in a household where I [00:05:00] really heard, like, children should be seen and not heard. And so since undergrad, I've been trying to figure out, like, Where is a job where I can, like, do good work and will treat me well? And, like, I'm still on that journey. We work in too damn much to be this damn miserable, right?

[00:05:13] But I'm like, let's shake it up. Can we play a little bit? Let's experiment. Let's push what we think is, like, okay and possible here. And so that's kind of what I see my job now. Like, right now, my day job, I'm working at a non profit. And I've been working in non profits for more than 10 years. And so that's really, like, the folks I help with are also non profits.

[00:05:30] And like, we kind of get stuck in the, you know, I came here because I really want to do good and then because it is, it's still a job, it's still like a corporation of some sorts, they have like these fucked up practices, honestly, right? And we're like, how can you have such a beautiful mission, but you treat people like shit?

[00:05:46] And I'm like, let's talk about it. It's, it's very, that's very normal. That's, that's a very regular problem. And having to, like, figure out, well, how do I separate myself enough and, like, what battles do I fight, what battles do I let go, and how do I not be the only [00:06:00] one speaking up, which I feel like I've heard you talk about in other podcasts, too, of being, like, not being that lone wolf.

[00:06:05] And so I think part of my work, too, was, like, my community organizing background has been, okay, how am I not the only one speaking up? How do I get my colleagues together? You know, this, like, y'all, we need to take turns. This is a shared issue. Let's, let's also collectively speak up about this thing. Oh my god, how do we get people to To want to participate in that the advocating so it's not just one of us there and it makes it harder But I do think you have a mix of special skills that are named to you as an afro latina as a new yorker No person in the world who's as direct as a new yorker, right?

[00:06:40] Talk to us about navigating your career with all these like the intersections of identity That also make you probably more likely to be honest and transparent and upfront and all the things that I think the average person struggles with. Yeah, totally. I think definitely all of those identities that you mentioned, I think now that I'm also learning [00:07:00] about me possibly being autistic as well, that I'm learning that we have a very, uh, hard, like, right and wrong meter, which I'm like, I've always had that.

[00:07:09] It's something that like, if you work with me, you'll hear me say over and over again that I'm like, I can't do shit that I think is stupid. Like I, I just really can't, there's so many things that just like, doesn't make sense to me. And so part of the way that I think that I've like, shown up with all of my identities, and I think with my like, politics and my approach to the world, is also like, but make it make sense though, right?

[00:07:29] If so much doesn't make sense, so much of it is like, do as I say, not as I do, I said so, so you do it, like all this like, really paternalistic and like, I know better than you, and I'm just like, mm mm, we are like, I'm over here like, no one is as smart as all of us, You need to give me information, I'm gonna give you information, like, together we can be better.

[00:07:47] And it's just been so interesting to see other people respond to me, because people are like, oh my god, I would have never asked that question, or oh my god, I would have never thought to say that before, and I'm like, I know, that's the point. Like, y'all, but, but, and I think because other people, [00:08:00] given their identities or their experiences, like, I'm also, my background is in social work, so I know that trauma plays a big part, like, it's familial trauma, intergenerational trauma, it's a lot of stuff happening, right?

[00:08:09] That you're just like, oh, I'm just not. I'm not gonna push the envelope, but I'm, I'm someone that I'm really interested in, like, seeing what's possible when I use my voice, like, that's just, like, what is really clear to me about what I'm here to do is really, like, my voice has power, and what can I do when I use it, right, and how can I support other people as well, and so when I do ask those questions, or when I am, like, did you hear him?

[00:08:31] He was straight line us! What do you think about that? Right, that it's really just, like, Opening up conversations that I feel like we will do it. Like, okay, we're going to happy hour We're having the work meeting debrief, but i'm someone that i'm like, okay Okay, we just talk shit for like two three hours very productive and what we're gonna do tomorrow Like how are we going to show up different because I don't want to just talk shit.

[00:08:50] I want shit to be different It's like how do we create those conversations? So it's like you I see what you're saying and you see what i'm saying But we're not having those conversations since I feel like that's a [00:09:00] place where I start with people. It's like Well do you know what Judy thinks about XYZ?

[00:09:04] Let's start there, right? Like everyone's like, how's the weekend? Weekend was great. What did you all about that meeting? What did you agree with? What did you not agree with? Okay, let's see. Let's see how that goes and start from there because I feel like if we don't have those relationships, no one's gonna stand by nobody, you know?

[00:09:18] And then you're gonna be the only one saying whatever is on your heart. But it's like we have to create that relationship with other people and kind of be discerning because I've also had conversations where people are like, well I tried that out and that didn't work out. And so I'm also get on my So box her out like, I think we need to practice retrusting people, you know, when people fuck up.

[00:09:36] The trust thing is big. Even if you've gotten over the fact that you come from a household where you, you know, you weren't allowed to express yourself. Or you have been in work environments where that hasn't been safe for you to do that. Even then once you've come out of that and you still want to speak up and you still want to problem solve and you still want to like tell it like it is, how do you trust that you aren't going to be pinned as like, you know, [00:10:00] a pop star is a drama.

[00:10:02] You always got something to say. So like, how do you kind of fight against that and trust that you can, can be yourself and bring up these topics without it kind of coming back to slap you in the face? Yeah, I think it's really like pulling the layers and and kind of seeing like how much of that is actually true, right?

[00:10:19] Like I think part of the work that I do too is around like what what kind of feedback are people giving? Is it actually feedback, right? Is it like really in service of like your goals and how you want to go as a person or is someone just telling you some shit that's really based on their value system, their outlook on the world?

[00:10:35] The other part of it too that I work around is this piece around like In order for you to put yourself on the ledge there, if you are being the only one, or even trying to start those conversations with other people, there needs to be a sense of you having your own back, you know? And I think I've talked to some people that are like, well, I've gone out and tried to do things, and it's turned out like not, hasn't turned out the way that I wanted to.

[00:10:55] And so I learned to stop trusting myself. I don't listen to my intuition. I don't trust my gut. [00:11:00] And I'm like, that's part of the re healing process for me. Then I'm like, let's start there, right? Like, Well, let's actually look at like, did that stuff not go right or was it like these people are just committed to misunderstanding you and there was nothing that you could have done that could have changed that that said otherwise, I've had so many of those moments where, you know, someone who does speak up and most people, it'll usually be my colleagues will be like, damn, Petra, you really I'm so glad you said that.

[00:11:22] But people who are in positions of power, my supervisors, they don't think that shit is cute, right? But I'm like, but if I value their words more than mine, that I'm never gonna say nothing. And so it's really taken me to be like, okay, Let me pull back the layers and see, like, is there some validity here or is that person, like, is their value system, are they, like, care more about the organization than me trying to live my full humanity?

[00:11:45] Like, we need to look at all of those things, but I think in the split moments that we get, like, that negative feedback, All of that goes out the window, which is why I'm like, no one, nothing of this. Can we do alone? You really probably should talk to someone around like this thing kind of happened and this person really didn't [00:12:00] like it.

[00:12:00] I'm like, well, yeah. Cause it makes sense for them to respond that way versus it being like, Oh no, you don't get to take risks. It doesn't mean that you like your voice doesn't get to be heard, but we need to like, stop that process before we're just going to like, okay, no fuck it. I ain't doing nothing no more.

[00:12:14] Yeah. Wait, tell us about Like a very, a specific incident with you around feedback because I want people to kind of like hear, hear an example of what this could look like so they can better relate for their own experiences. Yeah. So I think the, the one that kind of comes up to me is the most recent kind of blowout and the biggest negative reaction I've gotten.

[00:12:35] 2022 at the last job that I was at there for about three years already, you know, busting my ass doing what I do. I care about the work that I'm doing. I like the people I'm doing it for. Yeah. And it's like salary increase time, right? We're doing promotions. We're doing increases. I'm like, okay, i'm sitting pretty i'm like Okay, i've been busting my ass people are like you do it so good So of course i'm over here thinking it's gonna happen for me.

[00:12:53] I'm like, okay The organization like tells us like oh you need to have like these two things One you need to like hit [00:13:00] all of your metrics like whatever is your metrics in your department needs to hit that or Exceed it and then the second thing is that you need to do like Continuing education. So to show us that you're like promoting yourself and getting better.

[00:13:10] And so I offer that, right? Because I'm like, organizations usually will tell you what you need to get this promotion. And so, if your organization doesn't do that, that's like a red flag, right? But at least mine did have it. So I was like, okay, check, check. I'm like, exceeded in my department. And as a social worker, I always have to do continuing education.

[00:13:27] So I'm like, okay, I have both of those things. So I get into this conversation with my supervisor, and I'm like, we're talking about all the stuff I did well, areas for growth, there really aren't any areas for growth, and I'm like, okay, cute, why don't we talk about my merit increase? And then my supervisor's like, that's not happening.

[00:13:42] I'm like, what do you, why? And someone has been with me for two years, so knew my work pretty well, and so I, we talked about like why I thought that I deserved the merit increase, and then he was like, okay, well, yeah, these are all good reasons, right? So in my mind, I'm like, okay, I don't know, maybe you missed something, but like, go talk to somebody, go talk to [00:14:00] HR.

[00:14:00] And so he went back to talk to HR, came back, had a meeting. And again, I'm like, okay, I've done everything I need to do. So I'm coming into this meeting being like, okay, great. How much am I going? What's my increase going to be? And so he comes in and he's like, well, actually here are 51 reasons why you can't get this increase that are separate from these two that we told you.

[00:14:19] And I'm like, fucking floored. And I'm like, See, this is, this is such a mess. I'm like, again, busting my ass, doing all the right things, everybody's singing like, their praises about me, but here when it comes to talking about money, okay, like I've been doing all this stuff, it's still a job, I'm here for some money, and now y'all want to play in my face is how it felt.

[00:14:38] So I'm listening to him and I'm like, okay, the reasons that he gave me were basically things that I couldn't, I didn't have control over. So I was like, but, so I was like, but this is my role, right? So again, like we're giving a role and a certain responsibilities. And he was like, well, you got to do X, Y, Z over here.

[00:14:52] And I'm like, What am I gonna do that? I'm like trying to do everything in my job, but you want me to do extra for money? I don't even know what's [00:15:00] coming, which is what organizations will do. They'll be like, well, you do more, do 10 times more and maybe you'll get a little bit of money. And I was like, okay, I got two choices.

[00:15:08] One, I could try to advocate and be like, I don't think y'all heard me correctly. I already did what I had to do based on what y'all told us that we needed for like this merit increase, or I can leave it alone. I'm not the leave it alone type, you're so good at that. And so I was like, well, let's fuck around and find out.

[00:15:32] So I made, I created this like four to five page document detailing all the things and being like, here are the two metrics. Here's my evidence. I got links to shit. There's spreadsheets. I'm very thorough, which is also why I think I can be, I'm someone that can be particularly annoying for people in power because they're like, Damn, the bitch got data.

[00:15:52] She got charts. She got evidence. No, I hate this girl. I could, I get it. Right. But what's, [00:16:00] if I'm on their good side, they're like, great. I can, they can use my analytics. Um, they doubled down and then it ended with, there's like a lot of stuff that happened in between, but it ended with us having a conversation with my supervisor and the executive director, where they gave me feedback around like a GIF that I had used that was inappropriate, which is I'm like, if you don't know me, I have an excellent gift game.

[00:16:23] I use the best gifts for every moment, but none of them are like not safe for work. And so just naming little petty shit like this, and I was like, wow, I didn't really got under y'all skin. And now y'all are trying to create evidence around me in case. Y'all wanna fire me, or I leave, or say some wild shit, y'all can be like, no, her gift usage was messed up, we didn't like how the face that she had at this meeting, and so, that meeting ended with me being like, this sounds a lot about, like, tone policing, and this organization that wants to say that we're doing, like, diversity, equity, and fusion, As being the few, you know, women of color on staff, it sounds like y'all really don't like my tone, which is a problem, [00:17:00] and they lost it.

[00:17:00] It took me some time to be like, well damn, am I wrong? And maybe, right? I'm not the, the, what is it, the jury's out on that. Could be wrong, they could be right, but the point is you're telling me that this GIF is inappropriate, the reason that I don't get a raise? Like, that's wild shit. That is wild shit is the evidence that you're bringing, and so I had to do the work around like, oh no, well who else got promotions?

[00:17:21] Who else got increases? Not nobody else to look like me. Nobody else to sound like me that will be the one to ask the hard questions. Okay, so it's not just me. It can't be. But I wouldn't know that if I didn't have conversations with people, you know? So I like all of the other people of color at my organization.

[00:17:37] I was like, how long y'all been here? What the races look like? And I was like, oh y'all gotta Y'all got an HR problem on the racial lines. Okay, it's not just me. Just to kind of close out this story, after the whole meeting, I collected myself, I licked my wounds, right? Cause I'm like, oh, these are people in the house, I'm about to get fired.

[00:17:53] I'm like, I really don't want to get fired, but y'all, y'all fucked up. Right? And so I was like, okay, let me compose myself. I had [00:18:00] many, I did many debriefs with some of my friends. They were like, yeah, that's fucked up. I've had that experience too at this place with that person. And so. More stuff started coming out the floodgates like from stuff that I didn't know before I got there And then it ended with me sharing like I don't know if y'all thought that was feedback I know we've never got a feedback training at organization Which I've also found is like that's fucked up like people around that stuff and I gave them a document I was like you don't bully people you don't do two on one with the two most powerful people in the organization Two, anybody ask me, like, if it was okay for this person to join our meeting, no one told me that this type of feedback would begin, and I'm really big on, like, ask people how they like to receive feedback, and so I, like, Jotted down all of these things based on me and the role that I had before I was supervising like 20 people and I was Like I've had to tell a lot of people that like your work ain't up to par you need to do better And it's never been this approach.

[00:18:52] So just like the things that people call feedback I'm like, that's just actually not feedback And at that point I had so many good relationships in our organization that I told them and I was like [00:19:00] look Y'all, this is just going down. I'm planning my I think at that point it was like Three three to six months.

[00:19:05] I was like i'm gonna be out here three to six months Just want to let y'all know. And they were like, well, fuck it. We about to be out too. And I was like, okay, great. I was like, can y'all y'all be out first? Like start applying. I want to be the last one. Cause I might light this motherfucker up when I leave here.

[00:19:18] Like I'm Is, um, I wanted to be certain in no uncertain terms that nothing like this would happen again without people knowing. And so when I left and I did like my exit email, I told people and I was like, if you haven't tapped it, right? Everyone in this, uh, department, cause it was a nationalization. So everyone in the New York region had left at that point, except my supervisor and the executive director.

[00:19:42] And I was like, if you're curious or I'm like, oh, and people seem to be leaving, the shit was coordinated. We all leaving at the same time because. The toxicity is a too mu Are you a professional pillow fighter? Or a 9 to 5 low cost time travel agent? Or maybe real estate sales on Mars is your profession?[00:20:00]

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[00:20:41] Get a hundred dollar credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin. com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin. com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be, to be. Right. And if you want to hear the full details of what I've seen as a woman of color, [00:21:00] as a queer person at this organization, um, you're going to find it here in my exit interview, which is like 15 to 20 page.

[00:21:06] I'm going to give you all the tea on what I've seen and y'all do better. It's up to y'all now. And I have like half the organization be like, can I get that document? I've also sensed that there's some things not right here. Okay. And I'm like, I'm, I'm done. I did what I could. I tried to get y'all together.

[00:21:20] I tried to do good work. But then you gonna come at me and make me feel vulnerable? I'm like, oh, we not gonna do that. And so that's like how I ended that. And even two years past now, I've heard about the ripple effects of that. Of being like, well, there was a lot of shit that was hidden that we didn't talk about it.

[00:21:36] Now you like put it out there for a part of it. Now we have to talk about it. When you're gone, right? You just don't You wonder, did anything actually change? Like, do people just get away with stuff? Like, how do you hold these places accountable outside of just straight up suing them? It's like a thing that people are saying about 2024.

[00:21:52] And I don't know if you felt this joy in your seeing and like, in your life, but it's also like the year, we've seen a lot of shit as it is. Like, this is like the year of clarity [00:22:00] too. There's a lot of things being unveiled. There's like truths that are showing up, whether you want to see them or not. And so I just see all of these moments like it's a moment that I either can get a little bit feel more powerful in the stuff that I'm doing or I can allow myself to feel weaker and I just like try to see these moments as a way for me to build my own power and for us to demonstrate that like, yeah, well, the shit might not get better today and then get fucked up in a day, so it's going to take some time, but I still believe in like, What's the possibility of the ripple effect?

[00:22:30] You know that like we don't know Once we say something or once we ask a question or like the relationship we have what will the impact of that be? but I just I just believe in the power of that that i'm like even if it doesn't come to like You know, you lost your job or you figured out you're like damn.

[00:22:45] I really fucked up that that petra girl I'm, like it's fine, right? Because i'm like there's other stuff that i'm gonna trust that the universe is doing that. I just can't see you know because if not You take like over ownership over this stuff too, right? Especially if you are interested in change, you're like, [00:23:00] I have to make it happen.

[00:23:00] I have to see everything. And it's like, you're really not going to be able to, right? And if you're only trying to like advocate or change something or disrupt something, and it's only like, you're like, I can only do it if I only see the results of it. Um, like you, you're not going, you're going to stop.

[00:23:15] You're going to stop because some people are just not going to tell you that they've shifted. Some people are going to be like, you changed my mind. You might not see it. And that's why I always come back to like, okay, but what have I tried to accomplish? Like, it would be great if you would like stop oppressing and exploiting people, but like, what is it for me about.

[00:23:31] Taking whatever action and okay if I am I getting my goals Is it the thing that I can control and like evaluate myself based on okay? Let's let's move forward from there because I can't control nobody since we're talking about feedback What do you think is the number one thing people do wrong when they're giving feedback?

[00:23:47] I think people Really give feedback in a way that feels good to them or as easy as for them until someone might have like Feel really anxious. They're like well shit. I have to tell Natasha that she really fucked up with his support and let me do it in a [00:24:00] really like half hazard Kind of way because I I just can't hold the discomfort of it.

[00:24:04] And so you just fucking tell Natasha that her shit sucks, right? Probably some other words, but everybody gets what the underpinning of whatever you're saying And you say it like fucking 8 15 in the morning like the coffee ain't even hot yet, you know, and it's just like I just need to get it out the way, right?

[00:24:19] And I'm like, well, that's fucked up. That was about you and not about the person receiving it, right? Because I think really we should take a, an approach of like, even before really starting, like, I kind of think about this more in the working relationship, but I'm like, this you could do in your friendships.

[00:24:32] And anytime that you're in a relationship with someone that you're going to give some feedback, have that conversation beforehand, right? Like, what have been your experiences with feedback? And can you have a conversation around like, okay, let's say I'm meeting you to tell you something that's really challenging.

[00:24:44] How could I do that? Right? Is there a particular Sentence, like I like to offer sentence stems and examples to try to kind of get the guesswork out for people. Maybe it's like, something like, oh I know you were trying to do X, but I think Y was the impact. Sometimes we just say shit to people, but there's no like [00:25:00] plan around how do you support them.

[00:25:02] If the people aren't well, the work won't be well either. Which isn't that grammatically correct, but it sounds good. But it's like people, treat people good and people will do good work. That's it. Yeah, and I don't believe that like everyone needs to know all of the things you need to be an expert or anything But I'm like if you if this isn't an expertise for you, I'm like then build the skills All right, and if you can't build the skills So, um, you know, I think it's really important for us to, um, you know, get, get connected with somebody who has the skills.

[00:25:26] Right? If you know someone, you're like, well, damn, I really love the way, um, my coworker, Leah, gives feedback to her direct reports. What is, how does she do it? Get support for the thing that you need. But I feel like, you know, again, this kind of goes with like, what are the messages and the stuff that we internalize?

[00:25:40] We're like, Oh, I think I have to know everything. And I have to be the one to tell this person and like, I want to be, I've heard people are like, well, I need to be tough. Like if people are going to respect me, they need to be tough. And I'm like, I am not with any of those myths around what we think leadership should be, which is also why I do part of my work is like, how do we dispel it?

[00:25:59] And like, [00:26:00] widen the gap of what it means to be a leader. And it's like, no, you don't have to know everything. You don't have to be this like hard ass people to respect you. Like I'm like a four foot 11. pretty compassionate person. And I'm like, people respect me. Like there's other ways to do leadership that isn't like white, hetero, cis guy, gay, gay, you know, like there's other ways to do it.

[00:26:19] I was at a conference recently and there was a panel and they were talking about Navigating the different generations at work, right? Implication I'm just gonna say was like boomers and maybe a lot of exers were like hard to the point like work ethic You got millennials who start to get more emotional And and then you know They were just ripping on gen z if i'm being frank like about a lot of things that we probably already heard before I was thinking about that.

[00:26:46] Everyone seems to think they're right about whatever their orientation is around Um Um, uh, communication and emotion or whatever, but it really kind of seems like messed up not to take [00:27:00] everyone's experiences into account and even have that be a factor in how you you manage. Right. And so someone was telling a story about like, you know, giving feedback to a employee and they cry.

[00:27:13] Do you think there's a right or wrong way to receive the feedback you're getting? Let's just say that it is actual feedback and not like an attack. I think if you were to have the conversation on like how people can receive feedback and what the experience around feedback has been, you can kind of.

[00:27:28] Probably preempt that right depending on the relationship I might be like i'm very sensitive to feedback and so I might get emotional and then you aren't so thrown off It's around like this person got a lot of fucking feelings, right? And I like really I'm, really passionate about the stuff that I do and like any any kind of critique I receive it much better now, but I think it takes practice right that I think It's like having that self awareness to be like, I'm probably gonna cry, but don't don't freak out, right?

[00:27:54] But then it's so then it means that on the manager side How are you preparing yourself to even be able to [00:28:00] supervise and manage all of those people that you might have someone from? Different generations that the thing I was thinking about like is that you need to be adaptive you know, and are you willing to be like flexible and maneuverable which is a Feel like people would consider that like a soft scale, but I'm like what's really necessary, right?

[00:28:15] And how are you helping other people build that too? And so I think, I think that is what is like letting people know what's your kind of regular orientation around feedback, if it is particularly challenging. Um, if it feels safe ish enough to do that. Or you can just be like, yeah, I feel really, um, protective over my work.

[00:28:32] And so, you know, it might take me some time, but I'm definitely open to it. And I think the second thing is that you should really ask for some time. I feel like if in your mind you're like, damn, they have a point, but I fucking hate you for saying it. I would ask like. Hey, you know, I, I can, I really am hearing what you're saying and I'd love to have a little bit of time to sit with it.

[00:28:50] Could we schedule another meeting to revisit so that you can collect yourself? Yeah. You're actually not in the headspace to like ask the questions you need, right? That's really like, that's one of the things that [00:29:00] I help people do is like, okay, when you're receiving this difficult feedback, Um, how do you ask more questions, right?

[00:29:05] Because someone might give you something that is, like, legit, but maybe you don't have the context, right? Or what are the examples, or like, what are the shifts? How can we, like, improve this thing? But if you are in a feeling state, your brain, that part of the brain is, like, off, right? So then what you can do is, like, you'll be like, okay, thank you, and then never revisit it, and act like it didn't happen, and then probably you're going to get the feedback again.

[00:29:26] Or you could be like, Hey, I really want to like to sit with this. Is it okay if we could like revisit on Wednesday? If it's like a Monday, like just take a little bit of time and then whoever you have to. Process this stuff with, you better call that person, be like, you already told me this shit and I just want to cry.

[00:29:41] Will you just be with me? And then come back and be like, okay, let's complain. Take the space that you need to feel the feelings to say what you really want to say. And then, okay, what's the game plan? What are we going to do? Right? We're coming in on Wednesday. Thank you so much for giving me time to sit with it.

[00:29:56] You know, I have some questions. Is it okay if I answer some questions? Okay, great. And we're just going to pick [00:30:00] up where we left off. I like that time is important. I've told everybody that I've ever worked with. You You don't want to get me right when something's happened, right? And not even people. I work with people in my life.

[00:30:12] Now I can respond right when it's happened. Sometimes I am comfortable doing that, but it's not going to be what you want, the way you want it, how you want it. It's going to feel, you're going to be nervous. Probably like I was in a situation Not too long ago where like I was being pushed to give a reaction because my silence because I am a vocal person.

[00:30:31] So sometimes you have to realize people are trying to really grow, change, learn, give you the best that they can and you cannot push people when they're not, yeah. And of course, you know, within reason, you know, when a conversation needs to happen, particularly when it's about performance or goals or things like that, you know, you do have to have the conversation eventually, but I love like just giving people space.

[00:30:54] Right. I don't buy into the sense of urgency that we feel. Um, because I think a lot of it is actually [00:31:00] not urgent, you know, like some of it is not, like, if people die, nobody's dying, right? We're just going to reassign that person to someone else, but like, I really care about you hearing this feedback, growing as a person, and that means it just needs to be on a different timeline.

[00:31:13] Understand that people are complex and people are coming with different stuff, and actually, I don't see that as a hindrance. I think that makes the work better, but it's only if you, I feel like, have a sense of self that is like that, do you see yourself as a whole person, or do you also expect People to be like this one sided fucking you can't see my arms.

[00:31:31] I do like a Barbie arms moving Do you expect yourself to be robotic and that's not gonna give to other people but like I want to be whole As much hole and be like more me than I am yesterday Then I have to learn how to interact with that when I see that in other people Yeah, and we're asking this stuff from our co workers from our leaders.

[00:31:50] I think real about it We live in a culture that there's not a lot of feedback going on We are in a ghosting culture, either like in our own families, um, [00:32:00] culturally maybe you don't really call someone to the carpet. You just let something go, right? Some big things that like should be talked about never get addressed.

[00:32:09] We go to therapy and we talk about 'em for ourselves, but we never actually approach the person. We go family members, friends, relationships, and you just let things slide. And there's not a lot of conversations happening, which is why when we do have conversations, even the most innocent, loving ones, we are so defensive because we don't have enough practice.

[00:32:29] Yeah, I think about, like, we can be so hard on ourselves. And I work with people that are like, well shit, you're talking about compassion and giving myself grace and trying to be a whole human. No one's taught me that. I'm like, yeah, and that means that you have to give, like, even, you know, More grace and understanding and like permission to yourself because that wasn't a thing that you that wasn't okay Right and that we're actually like I think about like what are the skills that we'll need for the future Because i'm super into science fiction because of octavia you butler I'm, like what?

[00:32:57] We're gonna need to be compassionate but to but in real [00:33:00] like i'm 33, but i'm only a 10 year old at this stuff Like that i'm only like what is that fifth grader? I'm only a fifth grader and so when you're thinking about like Well shit, I can't do half of the things that this person can do. I'm like, well yeah, you're gonna have to start.

[00:33:14] And then when you start, you're gonna be like, one in it. And then you're gonna be a toddler, and then you're gonna be a teenager at it. And like, give, and that's okay, that's to be expected. But I think if you're getting a response from people like, why aren't you here yet? I'm like, well fuck them! Like, they're on that sense of urgency stuff, right?

[00:33:30] There's a particular timeline, and again, it's like, other people can live their lives how you want to, but I Well, how do you want to live your life? Is that how you want to orient to yourself? Or you're just like, Oh my God, you're never on time. You don't know how to do anything. Right. Like that's not helping us either.

[00:33:42] Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There's so much. Ooh, we need a lot of help. I believe in us though. Y'all we're staying like generally positive, even though it does look like maybe everything's crumbling around this. It can be rebuilt. It can be rebuilt. It's fine. Again, if we're just looking at [00:34:00] like all of the years that you've been alive, but like, I.

[00:34:03] I don't remember history all that well, but I studied it. I'm like, shit, people have been resilient. They've like overcome. And they're like, all of that is in everyone's ancestry. But like, do you know about that? Do you know where you come from? That like, the stuff is hard now, but you have a whole lineage of people who are like, well, shit is hard.

[00:34:19] But what, let's keep going. Let's keep trying. Let's keep hiding. Let's be creative. But that's also true about us, right? We got, we need a lot of help. But we're also like, there's like also abundance, you know, let's have a couple weeks. I'm hoping people out there will like listen to this conversation and be like, all right, all right Like i'm gonna hide myself up in the mirror like lisa did right?

[00:34:39] And be like, yeah, I can do this i'm gonna say this thing i'm gonna think about it i'm gonna be thoughtful i'm gonna Remember that the person I'm talking to is human, but I'm still gonna hook up and do this thing and maybe we'll get some testimonials. If y'all do this, please let us know because we want to know what went right, what went wrong, did you implement some skills that you heard?

[00:34:57] Like give us feedback, please. Cause I think [00:35:00] so much of it is that if, if, if people are listening and they're like, there's some stuff that I want to be different. I don't think that there's enough stories, you know? So, and I love this. I love what you're doing with your podcast that you're trying to.

[00:35:10] Unveil and invite to be like, there's so many different types of stories, so many different types of experiences so that you at least you could be like, Petra did it. Bernice did it. Someone did something that I think that just shifts something for us. Thanks so much for tuning in this week. If you love cheering for Petra, you can sign up for her weekly emails around self trust, authenticity, and leadership by hitting the link in the show notes.

[00:35:32] Have an amazing week.

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