Retroactive Allyship Theatre, The Workplace, and Challenging The Status Quo

I am such a fan of the Be Well Sis Podcast ever since I found the inner child meditation that Dr. Cassandre Dunbar voiced which has provided such a helpful narration for my own inner child healing work.

I was so excited when Cassandre allowed me to come on her podcast to share how workers can make some good trouble (in service of social change) and still keep their jobs. Cassandre is s a mother of 2 young boys, medical doctor, wife, educator, Wellness writer, and host of the Be Well, Sis Podcast. She is incredibly passionate about the wellness and self-care practices of Black millennial women.

This blog post includes the episode links and full transcription. 

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TRANSCRIPTION

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, workplace, petra, moment, funky, thinking, sis, squad, feel, episode, ally, person, podcast, challenges, levels, relationship, offer, trust, happen, piece

SPEAKERS

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar, Petra Vega

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  00:00

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And they're offering my audience a free year supply a vitamin D, and five free travel packs with your first purchase. If you visit my link today, so you'll basically never have to buy vitamin D again how to redeem your offer. Simply visit athletic greens.com/be Well sis, again to redeem your offer of one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs, visit athletic greens.com/be Well sis. Too often black women are a mere afterthought in conversations around wellness, but not in this space. On this podcast. The dialogue is always centered around women like you. Welcome to the podcast, but more importantly, welcome to the tribe. Be well sis. Hello, hello and welcome back to the bee Waltz's podcast, I am your host, Cassandra Dunbar. Happy New Year. I know it is a little bit late. We're about mid month at this point. And I'm now saying Happy New Year. But I'll be honest, the first two weeks of this year did not go off the way I wanted them to. So I'm starting from the top. So Happy New Year. And besides that, I can say Happy New Year to you earlier. So I am wishing you a happy new year now. How has life been treating you? How has the new year been treating you but more importantly, how have you been treating yourself, I really hope that you are well. And if things are not the way that you want them to be, I hope that this is the turning point for you and that things will start to go your way. So today we will be talking about the intersection or of our mental health and our workplaces. So as a member of any marginalized community, so whether you are black, brown, a woman, part of the LGBT community, disabled whatever, you know how frustrating and challenging it can be to navigate the workplace. So from the micro aggressions to outright discrimination, it can feel really hard to feel a sense of psychological safety and that your ideas are truly valued in the office, it really can be an uphill battle to just be seen and heard. Did you know that the average American spends a third of their lifetime at work. And as we navigate the challenges of the modern world, it is more important than ever to prioritize our mental and emotional well being, especially while being othered in the workplace. And because we spend so much time at work, it's almost impossible to compartmentalize chronic stressor that some of it some of us experience at work. For example, common physical manifestations of chronic workplace stress include. So there are increases in our cardiovascular in our risk of cardiovascular disease, which leads to increased risk of having high blood pressure and high blood sugar levels leading to diabetes. It can promote musculoskeletal disorders, disrupt our eating habits and digestive patterns. And if somebody is already suffering with mental health disorders, such as anxiety and depression, this will only be intensified by dealing with chronic workplace stress. Also things like the weakening of our immune system, long lasting migraines and or routine headaches, and just our inability to focus and having and concentrating on tasks are things that are a direct result of chronic workplace stress. And this is just a handful of things. This isn't the entire list. I've said the word stress several times and I want to distinguish between stresses that are challenges and stressors that are deemed by our brains as threats. Challenges are where or what happened when you feel like you have enough resources to cope with the situation. Whereas if the situation is deemed to be too demanding exceeding our resources, then you experience that as a threat. So for this EPA sewed will be. When we refer to stress, we'll be referring to those stressors that are threats. But before we get into the nitty gritty of this episode, I really want to remind you to leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. It really helps others to find the show, and it helps us to know what you want to hear more of. And if you want to support us and get extra perks such as exclusive episodes, join our Patreon community@patreon.com slash be wellness. And lastly, I want to invite you to join our group chat on the Geneva app. This year, my one goal is to find and connect more like minded people. So we're starting here. Let's talk about what your reading recommendations for wellness practitioners in your cities will share monthly challenges and so much more to help you achieve your wellness goals. Again, and join us in the group chat over on Geneva. It is completely free to join and the link will be below in the description. So join us during your your wellness besties. So getting back to the episode, today's episode features Petra Vega. Petra is the founder and liberatory leadership coach of create more possibilities. She's also a facilitator, radical social worker and emerging strategic. Her background includes over a decade of experience and building power with parents and neighbors challenging toxic workplaces into care center spaces, developing facilitation as an art for consensus based decision making and people as experts in their own lives. It was such a joy speaking to Petra. And not only does she offer great insights on ally ship in the workplace, but she has an infectious energy that I'm sure you're all enjoying much as I did. So with that said, let's hop into the episode. Thank you so so much for joining. As always, I am so glad you're here. Be well says. Alright, so I have Petra with us today on the show. I'm so excited to talk to you. When I looked you up online, I saw like your website, what's your about on the set? Oh, yes, we need to talk like ASAP. So how are you?

Petra Vega  07:17

I'm so good. Thank you so much for responding so quickly. I was like, I've been listening to you for a little while. And I'm like, Yeah, you were doing it. For sure. Absolutely.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  07:25

Thank you. Thank you for reaching out. So let's just go ahead and jump right into it. So a couple of things that like stood out to me. You mentioned that how not to gaslight ourselves specifically when we're in the workplace. Right. So let me let me go back. So let's talk about ways that we as black indigenous people of color, can be vocal about what is going on in the workplace without losing our jobs. That's a big one. We want to speak up. But like, we don't want to cause our livelihoods. Right. So

Petra Vega  08:01

yeah, for sure. So I think the big piece is really just around like how can we how can we meet the moment, but I think that there are moments while we're working and we're like, like, it might be in our spirit that we're like, that doesn't seem right. Or we know from prior experience. We're like, I don't I don't know about this thing. And so for me, I'm always like, what are we doing during those moments? Right? And for some of us who may be like, that's real funky, but I don't know what to say or I don't know if I should say something. And so hopefully, I can offer some, some places to start, right that it might not just wait up up and down. But like, here's the places to start. Right. And so, during during one of those moments and thinking about like, let's say there might have been a decision that was made, right, and maybe it's something that people have wanted for a long time, right. But it was something it didn't still didn't happen. But maybe there's a piece of that needed to happen, either to make it possible. And so I always like to ask the question, like, what made this decision possible, right? Because there might be things that we want to happen, or things that we have been trying to ask for for a long time then thinking about like, my background is in nonprofits. And so something that we always swapped for was like, Oh, how do we get some compensation for our interns? Right, which is like, very a taboo subject. We're like, interns don't get paid. But I was like that it's not right. They're doing so much labor, they should be paid for that labor, right? Like all of us. Yeah. So when that decision changed, for me, I was like, we brought data to the table. We had talked to the organizers, other people around the decision, and it wasn't until the board was on board that that decision happened. Right? It's I think, when you ask the question, like, what made this decision possible, really coming from that place of curiosity, then you can see like, Okay, if I want something to change, what is all the different pieces in the formula that need to be present so that it can change?

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  09:43

That's a good point. You know, I didn't learn that until a little bit later on in corporate life, learning all the different stakeholders that go into one little decision. So figuring out who all the stakeholders are, and the the reasoning behind that can To help you form your own better argument to support your case for whatever you want, really good point.

Petra Vega  10:05

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it might be, it might be that it's people it might be information. And it's also just might be something you haven't even thought about. Right. But I think it's just like us being more upfront and thinking about, like, what's happening behind the scenes, right, that I think that part of it is that there's a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes, and particularly if you're of a marginalized identity, you may not be in those rooms, you may not be part of that decision making. And so when that decision comes forward, one of the things that you can say is like, I didn't, how do we get to this decision, right? And then I imagine that people may not be expecting that, right? Like, if you're in an organization or a company that's very top down, they're like, this is a decision, we've made it. Let's move forward. Right? But just having that little moment of being like, what made this possible? That just shifts things right. And for me, I'm always thinking about, like, what's the ripple effect? So for someone to ask that question, someone else is going to be like, That's a good question. What what? Yeah, I have another question. Right, that it just takes one person?

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  11:00

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I'm thinking about, you mentioned, like, we may not be in those rooms, which is really, really true. And in organizations that are very top down, right. What do you suggest? If we, if the answer is just No, but they don't give us any more context? Even asking, even after asking for a little bit more context?

Petra Vega  11:21

Yeah. So I think that kind of goes, I'm thinking about, like, what are some strategies to make change. And one thing that I've learned as someone who's like, I'm a natural disrupter, like, I just know, I'm like, I'm here to shake things up, I'm here to make good trouble. And this may or may not be some of your listeners, right? And so it's okay, if you're not, but if you are, right, that the important thing that I've learned is that you need a squat, right. And that's really the piece about, again, that helps you not to get fired, it's very easy if you become the problem, quote, unquote, problem person. But it's much harder if you're like, this group of people have demonstrated that this thing would be helpful, right? Or that this idea should be implemented, or this product should be implemented, when it's a group of people like it will look really wild for people to like, fire 10 people off the day. Right, right. And so really, it's like getting around. And so I think it's one strategy is like, if you feel moved enough, research enough to ask that question to kind of put it out there, and you're not afraid of repercussions. That's one way. And I think another way that I really like to lean on with folks that I work with is like, well, how are you strategizing with people? Right? And so how are you building the kind of relationships that when you know, like, we live in the world, there's gonna be racism and white supremacy and heterosis and all this other stuff, right? That's like, behind you getting your squad ready for what when those moments happen, let's not act like they're not going to happen. And instead of be prepared for them, right, so it's like, who's gonna say something? Do we know how to say something? Like, who has had experience with this? What do people try before? Right? So really starting those kinds of conversations, so that when the moment does happen, you're not the only one. That's like saying something, particularly if you have a marginalized identity, which we normally are, right? We're the ones that are like, that's not right, because we know what that's like. But it's like, how do we get our colleagues to do that? And so for me, it's really about like, what are the kinds of relationships that you're building? Right? Not just like, oh, yeah, I talked to Susie on Monday, and we talked about the weekend, but like, Susie, have you been gaslighted at work before? Do you know what that's like? That's what I'm experiencing, you know,

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  13:14

be well, so this is very much an advocate for therapy. And I believe that you don't have to be in crisis in order to seek help and get support. Life is complicated. We all wear many hats and sometimes it can be overwhelming. So I need therapy years ago has been pivotal in helping me be a better mother, daughter and partner. It's truly been a game changer in how I view myself and the world around me. So be well says is proud to be sponsored by better help. Better help is the world's largest Derby platform whose mission is to make professional therapy accessible, affordable and convenient. So anyone who struggles with life's challenges can get help anywhere at any time. Talk to your therapist and private online environment at your convenience. Just fill out a questionnaire to assess your specific needs. And then you get matched with a therapist as little as 48 hours. Then you schedule secure video and phone sessions. Plus you can exchange unlimited messages and everything you share is completely confidential. Join the 3 million plus people who have taken charge of their mental health with an experienced BetterHelp therapist. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/be Well sis, that's better@lp.com slash be well, sis. So talk to me about if we are let's say the only black woman the only Latina in the room right? How do we find that squad? How do we vet people essentially because for me, I know one of the things that have been I guess a downfall for me has been I'm the only one in the room and I immediately closed off a little bit because I feel like you just don't get it you don't get me right so I put up that wall without even getting to know people. So how do you propose that we form our squad and and that people yeah Um,

Petra Vega  15:00

yeah, I love that question. I was just talking to my friend earlier about this course that we're doing around how her and I kind of grew up saying that like, we don't like people, right? And that is like a protective barrier. And like, Yeah, I'm a social worker, I'm an organizer. I'm here for liberation and freedom. And that was the thing that I believed. And I was like, wow, like people don't. Because I know what people can be like, right. And so what I had to do, what I would offer for folks first is like, if you know that you need a squad, and part of the of the way that you that may be kind of showing up for you is like, but I can't trust people that it's like, who can you trust them? Right? Like, can you trust yourself? Like, can you trust yourself to have good judgment about people? And then And then by the off chance, right, because I've done this to buy the options that you might be off? Can you trust yourself not to use that against yourself? That I, that I think those are the pieces that like when we want to step out? And we're like, okay, if it doesn't go precisely, right, like this is the work that I help people do is like, how do you step out and do something that might go against the grain, but it's an alignment of what you want, it's what you really care about? And how can you still do it? Even if you don't get the outcome that you wanted? Right? He said, I still feel valuable of it. It's like, as long as you're just like, like, get Petra, that's why you shouldn't do this, like that. This is the reason why you don't do that. It's like, why can I can choose to make that meaning from it. Or I can be like, Okay, what else is here? Right? Then I'm like, Okay, that didn't go as planned what I can, what can I learn from this moment? Right? And I think too, is this like, allowing people to surprise you. And that's something that I offer, gently, where I'm like, I don't know where, where people are working at what is happening when people are listening to this episode. But there might be an opportunity for people to surprise you. And so I just wonder about, like, if you were to take that step, right, and maybe it's like, Well, I do talk to I'm gonna keep talking about Susie, I talked to Susie about my weekend, right? You may, you may want to take a risk and being like, you know, Susie, I've had a really hard time in workplaces before, like, has this happened to you? Right, something something small like that. And you can put me to remix it to way it makes true for you. But I think it's around like our Can we trust ourselves to be vulnerable to potentially be able to connect with someone so that we can work towards being able to have each other's back in a kind of way? And I'm like, I think we do this with friendships. And we're good at it, right? Because we're like, oh, yeah, you my girl, right? It's like, well, how can you be my work girl in a kind of way? Right? Or how can I extend trust in that kind of way? I think it's much easier when you can trust yourself.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  17:29

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that one's that one's a heavy one. Just because, you know, they may have been situations where, you know, we made mistakes, right? It's part of being human. And in making mistakes, I find that me I focus on the mistakes that I've made necessarily on the good things that have happened, right? So in focusing on what I've done wrong, I start to trust my intuition less and less, right. So any tips for people who might be in that spot where they just really don't trust themselves to have discernment? And to vet out the right people? You know what I mean, in their workplace friends, supporter squad?

Petra Vega  18:17

Yeah, I want I always like to ask someone who's like, I identify as a radical social worker, which radical means to getting at the root, right? That like, what we're talking about, in a workplace for a marginalized, individual black or brown women, non binary, whoever this person is that I always like to think about, like, what's the structure at play that I think that when we add, like, what's the system or the structure at play, that benefits from whatever we're thinking of? I think it, it just adds a different air to it. Right? And so while I may, I may internalize that I may don't have good judgment or don't make good decisions. I always think about, like, Who benefits from this thought, right? That like white supremacy would love it, if we didn't believe in our decision making, and our intuition, even intuition, right, that like that, for some people, it's like, oh, it's not, it's not hard facts, and like, why do you believe that, but like, for us who may have maybe spiritual people may have a faith, intuition leads us right? And there's this particular feeling of particular rumble in our hearts and our souls that leads us and it's for me, I'm like, when when we can lead astray from that, that's when stuff gets a little while. Right. But it's like, I think it's how do we slow down the process between like, having making the action or even making the decision that like, I think you could be trustworthy? And then they may or may not be trustworthy. And then what's the response? How do we how do we what do we make sense of that with ourselves, right? And do we make it about like, there you go. Again, you're not you're not doing what? You're not making good choices, right? You're not You're not good at this thing, where I'm like, white supremacy, capitalism, sexism, I love that right? Because the more that we don't feel in our power, we don't feel good about what doing, the more they can sell to us, the more that that we will be stuck in these places because you're like, I tried everything and nothing works, right. And so for me, I also like to think about but like what is in your locus of control? That we can also be like, I want to if we are in a place and like, I want to transform this thing, and I'm like, I speaker, I'm that person. And I'm like, I'm gonna turn it off. What have I had to learn what I want other people to take away from us that, that we have a locus of control, we may have a circle of influence, right? And I believe that as we engage and build relations with other people, that influence can grow. Right. But while we have it, and thinking about like, some of the other podcast episodes you have first you gotta be like, right with it, right, like Lauryn Hill told us who got lighter. Yeah. Right, myself, and I'm like, take all the time that you need to do that. Because when you go out and you start to, to change, to challenge power dynamics, to speak truth to power to like, even ask these kinds of questions, the system is going to do what the system does. And the system's gonna make you believe every which way that you are wrong. So I'm just, I just come up, and I'm someone who also likes approbation. So this might be like, some journaling, work, some affirmation work, that it's really like, how do we reconfigure in our beautiful brains, different pathways to think about the things that we're doing that aren't against us? Right, because any message that we get, it's like, we suck, we're evil, there's nothing that we do matters. Like we're unworthy unable, we can't do anything from that place, right. And like, and, and there was no set up that way. It's also just want to acknowledge right for the folks who may be listening that are like, I don't try all of that. And like, I hear you, but maybe let's keep talking, like hit me.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  21:40

We'll be in the show notes.

Petra Vega  21:42

Like, I hear you. And I'm like, I bet you there's something else that we can do, right? Or there might be a piece of something that we haven't thought about it. So I think about like, again, what are the practices that we can do individually, and this is like being vocal in the moment, and then we'll talk about performative ally ships, I think this will also help with like, if you are kind of seeing people from the outside and you're like, Okay, I've been trying to say something, I've said it, maybe people have responded in, quote unquote, positively or the way that I expected maybe people haven't. And now you're like, Okay, I'm just out here. I'm just out here trying to make change by myself. How do I do it differently? You need the people, right, which is like, depending on how we grew up, where we grew up, we don't know how to relate to each other. And that is just like, we're in an exploration of that. I think, like friendship is one experimentation. Being in a romantic relationship with someone else is another experimentation. We're just trying to learn how to be together. So this is just another way that we're trying to learn. How can we be together? How can we have each other's backs? How can we hold each other accountable? When these moments you're like, you know what, Dan, I thought you have my back? What do you want me to talk now? Because you're like, what's that about? You like, so we're gonna have to also have the kind of skill in the muscle of dealing with conflict and that kind of way. And all of this stuff is about conflict, which I also love, but I'm like I am. Yeah, I know, I'm not the majority.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  22:59

You know, um, I didn't like I know it, but I don't keep it like forefront, when you mentioned that, you know, who benefits from us internalizing these things, white supremacy, the power the system, right. And I think that's so important to keep at the forefront. So that way, is to wait to get out of our minds and back into the real situation, right? I know, for me, I am so good at blaming myself for all the things that I did, why I didn't know or whatever. And allow me to, like, stay a little bit too long. Like, you know, self pity and all that good stuff. But I'm so happy that you mentioned that. So that way, like it's a good reframe. I don't know who benefits from me, sitting here in my self pity or sitting here beating myself up. They do. Right, they beat the system. So now let's turn that around. I'm really grateful. You said that. Yeah.

Petra Vega  24:03

Yeah. And I want to add that, like, even I want that to hold and I'm also somewhat of complexity. And I'm like, there multiple things happening at the same time. So like, yes, when the system is benefiting from this, but also you are a whole spirit having a human experiencing and someone that did something that was messed up to you. So like, yeah, if you need to be in your feelings I am I love a pity party habit as long as you need to, and go through it because we also don't want to avoid because that stuff is going to creep up. It's gonna composting our bodies in a different kind of way and gonna come out in a way we didn't anticipate. So also like, yes, it's not beneficial. And to that I How can I be in in the presence of my full experience of this thing? And like for me, I'm like, I'm gonna be mad for months and I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna get back on the horse or change. I'm gonna keep on keepin on.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  24:53

I appreciate that. So going back to the squad, so is the squad one point Listen to people like how ideally How big is the squat at work?

Petra Vega  25:06

I would say I'm someone who really likes to look at the small things again, because I'm like, here's a sentence. Here's a question. Here's a moment that I'm like, I think start small, right? Particularly if you are not sure, I think start with one person. And like, Is it cool if I shared a story I want to share a story about like a moment that I've I'm like, how I'm describing this is very intentional, because I'm that person. But I also just want to describe a story just in terms of like, I know that there are moments that happen. And this is a moment to kind of see like, who's your squad, right? Or how do you get people ready to create change. And so there was a moment in my enlistment last job that we were at national organization. So shout out to people who work at nationalisations, they are a whole slew of a whole thing. I know corporate has their whole thing, but like nonprofits for naturalisation are also hoping and so part of the whole national thing is that we get together, we got together once a month, and we would say like, Okay, how are we doing with this project? And everyone would go around and they do what people do, right? We're like, everything's good. Everything's great. Everything is as is but you know, behind the scenes, either because talk to some people, or because you have had a pick up and like everything is not together, right. But when we get into that meeting, what do we do we show face? Yep. But on a mask, and we're like, everything's great. And everything. I'm everything's wonderful, right? And so for me as someone who like, I'm very invested in my healing work and having a particular relationship with myself that isn't punitive or against myself. And so I was like, I don't have it together. But I will, right, because that's like, I am not, I'm not using that again, it doesn't make me have it not together be a good worker. I'm a good work. I know that already. Right. But like at this present time, I don't have it, but I will. Right. And so in that moment, my colleagues were like, Yeah, we don't have it either. Yeah, I don't I don't know why I said that. And so I was like, we're gonna want to make a moment of this. Like, we all did not have this thing together. We all had questions, or we didn't have our ducks in a row. But I was the only one that said something. Why did that happen? Why? Why are we respectfully like being fake with each other? Right? And these are people that I was working with for like, six months to a year at that point, right. So like, I've known you, we've had like, one on one conversations, why are we putting on this facade, right, but it's the, it's I think the thing that happens when we get into groups where like, no one wants to seem

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  27:32

like weak or like we, whatever, yeah,

Petra Vega  27:36

submissive, and we're like, but I'm like, why are we doing this? That to me, just didn't make sense. And so we're like, yeah, we're like perpetuating something that we don't want to be doing. Like, we don't have to do that. And so I think we had a conversation about and that was like, a tough conversation to have, right? Because it's a little bit of a call out a little bit of a call in, but like I had the relationship to be able to kind of say something like that. And so I also like people saw how I rolled. So they were like, Oh, this is very Petra to ask the kind of question and, and to kind of bring us in further into like, can we pay attention? Because I think there's so many moments that we have that we're just like getting to the next thing, getting to the next thing. And then when something does happen, we're like, Oh, my God, what do we do with it? And like everything, the whole world is crashing. But like, what if we got into practice of like, let's slow down? How are we? How are we being right now?

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  28:21

You know what, I appreciate that. And it made me trigger like a thought, a memory for me. And so when I was working on this one team, I felt like that would happen often, right? Where I was the one who was i Let's keep it funky guys, like, we do not have it together right now. But we're getting it together to our like superiors to external stakeholders, right? And then they would follow suit. And I'm and I got tired of why am I the one? Who has I feel like it was extra emotional labor in a way? Like, why am I the one who has to like, keep it all the way funky with these people? And amongst ourselves to

Petra Vega  28:59

know, yeah, it's like, it's as a as a woman as a person of color. I think folks who, if you want to see change it, it will likely be additional labor, right? But what I what I like, I just want to say that straight out put like not people aren't doing that people will just be wanting to like clock in and clock out. But I think if you if that is not how you want to live your life, it will require you to shift in a kind of way, right? So I think it's around like how can you pay attention to when you are the one that's like, we need to keep it funky, but then you're like, damn tired, like, then take a break. Like you get to take a break. And then you get to come back and then you get to the side, okay, and my goal keep it couldn't continue to tell people to keep it funky all week, or much at one time this week, right? But you get to kind of renegotiate that with yourself. Right? And so I think it's also with like, every time that we enter a meeting or an engagement or like a relationship people we get to renegotiate how we show up and like unfortunately because of the way that workplace culture has developed Over the years, again, that prioritizes the system, because it's like, if y'all aren't talking funky with each other, then you probably aren't talking about salaries or about issues or about such and such. I did this thing a few years ago, but I have been here that long. So I remember but you don't know, for any any of those things, right that like, if y'all don't keep it funky, none of those things are possible. And so then the power structure, leadership doesn't have to change. So of course, they're gonna want to like, keep it keep it the status quo. Yeah, status quo, keep it nine to five, don't be doing all that, right. But for me, I'm always like, well, what are the company's values? Right, that many companies have values around like collaboration, or relationships? So I'm like, this is our value. This is the this is the thing that we believe in? How does that look like? And so from that place, that's another strategy, right? That like, oh, you know, I'm really thinking about, like, we focus on relationships. But I see that we were not really building any relationship in this agenda. So it requires people to, like, interrupt that. Like, these aren't just words, these aren't just things but like, how do we be intentional? How do we be more present? And like, how do we bring that into the fullness of our experience? And for me, I'm just like, you spent so much time at work. So much time? Yeah. So how do we just do it in a different kind of way? And for me, it's like, a bit by bit, right. And it may require some labor from some of us and for and I think I, in the last podcast that I've heard of you talking about, like white feminism, and all this other stuff that like, yeah, it's not gonna come from people of privilege, right? Because they could not like they have not had the same experiences we have. They do not have the vantage point. And so it will, it will require us to do it. But I'm like in that kind of responsibility. I'm like this opportunity. We get to decide how we do it. We got to do it, but we get to decide how we do it. So I'm like, how house way?

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  31:50

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Petra Vega  33:42

I love it. And so I want to, quote, there's a writer and I believe it. So my property's name is Boulais. And he kind of coined this term retro active ally ship theater that I brought it to my organization. I was like, Y'all, some of us is doing a lot of this, right. And so I'm like, I would love to share with you the notes so that people can look deeply. But I'm like, I in all of my years of being in the workforce, I'm like, there's so many of these. And so I'm curious which ones kind of stand out to you and you're like, I know, 10 people that do that. So one of the ones right, oh, but let me let me let me kind of go back that retroactive ally ship theater is all about when someone waits until a critical moment, right, then maybe someone said something or did something that was funky, not in the way that we just described it like not good, Funky. And then the moment passes and that person didn't say something, and then they try to act like an ally. Right? And there's all of these ways that people are like, I want you to know I'm down but like when you need it to be down. Maybe you

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  34:43

wasn't down, right, like after the meeting? Yes. After the meeting,

Petra Vega  34:47

right. So there's one that's like, you offer condolences or sympathy after the fact right? You're like, Oh, I'm so sorry that that person said that racist, sexist, homophobic thing after The meeting when it was like, well, like, I don't need it at this point and why red flag? Right? Or it might be folks that are like, you know, I really agree with what you have to say in there. Um, you know, that's one, right. Another one is like, Oh, I wish I could do that. I wish I could speak up the way that you do

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  35:21

hate that so much. Hate that one.

Petra Vega  35:25

Like, you could write good in the same ways that I am trying to build that relation with myself and my intuition and my trust so that when y'all come at me wild, I don't take it against myself. You could do that work, too, right? So it's like, how do we so those are some of the things that you're like, oh, okay, you like halfway there. But this isn't the way that you need to be acting, which I feel like it's an ally ship, isn't it? Like, there's some intention or desire, but your follow through is off? Right? There's another one that it might be like, This person is more mad about it than you are. They're like, Oh, my God, I can't believe that that happened after the meeting. But but but but but, or maybe a few days later, they're like, oh, like, I'm still thinking about it. And I'm like, you can funnel that energy to write whatever the issue or the situation was. Right that I think part of the, the the theme with it is that then people are funneling their emotions, frustrations, experiences to us, versus towards the thing that actually happened, which is Ally ship, right? You're like, I want to prove to you that I'm a good person, that I care about you that I care about this, that I am. And I can do better, like, but it's not that it's like, how do you do the thing? When no one's looking? How do you do the thing, when maybe no one asked you, right? And maybe the beginning, people need to ask you. So I also had, like, part of my experiences was like, when you shared earlier, when you're like, I feel like I'm going to try to keep it funky here, right? I'd be like, can someone else remind us can someone else be responsible for making reminding us that we are not going to be doing the same things we're doing elsewhere? We go, we go keep it 100? We're gonna do we're gonna be real with each other. Could someone else be in charge of that in the same ways that like, I don't know if they corporate do this, but like, in nonprofits, you might have like someone to facilitate or take notes, or share the PowerPoint, make that a role, like who can remind us about our values? Or who kind of remind us about how we want to show up with each other? How do we want this to be different? And I think about like, oh, how do we how do we get a practice in that, but it may not be probably to develop that kind of culture with folks who are in leadership in the beginning, because it's a muscle, right? Like, this stuff is hard, it's complex. So get a little messy. And so the best way to make it to start is like to start you and at least another person. Yeah, like, you know, I've noticed this, I think some hints is like, Oh, someone else who kind of speaks up the same way you do, or maybe has similar values and having that kind of conversation. You're like, you know, I feel like, you're like you and I dive in this kind of way. I've been thinking about this, right? And it might be like, Well, I really don't like that decision that was made, right? Or I think like, it would really benefit us to include more people in this decision. Or I have this idea. And I feel like every time I bring an idea, it doesn't work out. Like what if we banded together and brought the idea together, right? Particularly if that person is a privileged identity. I'm also I'm always telling folks who may be white sis hetero male, like, use your privilege for good, like get behind people who are here making change, right? Because when you do it, you're not going to get the same kind of flak that we do. And that's just honest.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  38:38

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. There's a level of grace as Senator other people, unfortunately, yes. So I was actually talking to my therapist, like, I think it was last week. And I was telling her how, like, when does the work and like, where's the finish line? Because like, dang, right, she made the same face. She was like maybe

Petra Vega  39:00

I'm also therapists on it. Actually

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  39:04

say babe this, we just keep going. As long as you're alive, you got to keep learning and unlearning so but what I appreciate in our conversation just now between me and you is that I see like the work that you do inside how it can translate outwardly so like in your workplace you know, like you said, we spend so much time at work more so at work working than we do with our own families unfortunately right. So if we can use what we've learned doing the self worth examination and all that good stuff to like make what we do for a living one pleasurable I think it is just more encouragement to keep going even when it's tiring healing essentially Yeah,

Petra Vega  39:49

that's exactly what I was gonna add that I there's she's she takes on many roles. Her name is Agent Marie Brown. And one thing that she says is that my level of pleasure in our I know right in our Our movements and our social justice. And I think about like, even like, it's not, may not be necessarily fun to like, disrupt someone's language, right or to call someone in deeper or on a conversation. But for me, I just think about, like, how can I make it fun, though, right? And I'm like, Oh, here's a way that I get to, again, and I'm someone who's always thinking about the status quo. And I'm like, he would love it if we stayed separated, if I allowed them to divide and conquer us if I allowed them to, to make me believe that I there's nothing I can do that I'm just like, every day, I'm like, How can I make white supremacy angry today? And I'm like, those are the ways like, that feels nourishing for me that I'm like, our ancestors did that. Right? Our parents did that in different ways. People that took on and taught us different things. They were like, how? How can we turn up some good trouble, right, have a good time. And I think the piece around like, yeah, this work is is forever if you want it to be you always have an outfit, even all of the things that I'm sharing, feel free to take, like a piece take nothing at all take what feels useful, but the really thing is that we have a choice, right? And I think that any workplaces where we're taught that we don't have any choices, and I think it's because those of us who may want things to be differently, may not know how I don't know that it's possible and like I need my company create more possibilities. And I'm just like, how else can we do this differently that I like, so strongly believe that because I've seen it in my in the ways that I've shifted and how I've showed up to wait for it to be possible. So I'm just like, people need some tools. And people need some healing. And people need some people that I think it's also where like, I could do all the things right that I just did a IG live with someone who specializes in the strong black woman schema. And I'm like, I'm sure you've had episodes on this. But I'm like, That's not helping this situation. No right to be like, I'll do it all. I wear the cape and I'm like, no cakes, cakes, you you are whole and able and capable. And we need everybody. No one is as smart as everyone. And the the job for us is like how do we find those people that are like minded connected to us? And then how do we build a relationship with ourselves so that we can be open to other people? And then the times that like, they may not do what we want them to do? How do we not make that about us? How do we not make that about them? And how do we continue to be like, yes, we want to be relationship with humans on the planet, even though it is wild to do that. But how do I still want to do it to still figure this thing out?

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  42:26

Yeah. so beautifully. So you mentioned pleasure a second ago. So life is complicated. So what is something that has brought you some joy in the last 24 hours?

Petra Vega  42:47

I think I mentioned this earlier and also do a shout out because you probably might be connected to our fellow similar people. Alexis Pauline Gumbs, she has a chorus around Octavia Butler's work who I love and so I doing this course with my friends, again, y'all things are sometimes it's better with people. I'm also an introvert. So like it was tough on myself. But I'm doing this course with my friend. And so it's been an I'm dedicating the course around my creativity. And so I got like a brand new journal out and like in my dreams and my ideas, and I love thinking about things, theoretically, because I'm like, all this stuff around principles and values. I'm like, I love that. And I want to be like, but how do we do it? In real life? Yeah, and so that's the course that we just started like a few weeks ago. And so I just finished chatting with her. And just like when, when you do kind of allow yourself to get to know people to put yourself out there and that kind of way to let other people know you, which is very risky and very tender. But just the the joy, the laughter The affirmation, the like the goodness that I hope people can get from engaging in some good trouble with their colleagues. Like, that's the stuff that I live for. And so I just had that conversation before and I'm just like, I love you. I'm so glad I met you and we're friends and I met her at work. And then we did the thing where like We're together now we're friends. But it's special, right? So I think it just being like in the in the joy of finding people who you don't have to work hard with. No. Just comes. This is just fun. We just get to like, be here and do this fun thing together.

Dr. Cassandre Dunbar  44:21

That's beautiful. And it's funny, I had a similar situation. I found somebody I met somebody online. And we would DM back and forth. We're very aligned in what we do. And I'm like, we're in the same seat. Let's have lunch and we had lunch and it was great and like you I'm introverted, but I'm trying to like you know, branch out and yeah, and it was really, really nice. So thank you. Thanks again for listening to this episode of The Be Well Sis podcast. For more information on anything discussed in this episode, please see the show notes and or visit www dot be well sis podcast.com And don't forget to leave a five star review on Apple. Until next time, you Well says