Kari Burch is a chaotic multi-passionate creative neurodivergent human, mom, professional coach, and doctor of occupational therapy with a podcast called The Neurodivergent Visionary Podcast.

In this episode, we're diving deep into Emergent Strategy, Liberatory Leadership, how neurodivergent folks can make space to do their change-making in ways that are inclusive of their needs and desires, as well as the importance of reclaiming your voice.

This blog post includes the episode links and full transcription. 

Listen to the episode below:

You can access the podcast episode HERE (available on Spotify, Google Podcasts and Apple Podcasts).

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, affirming, share, learn, talk, work, feel, ways, emergent, possibilities, wanted, change, practice, voice, reclaiming, grows, create, shit, thinking, power

SPEAKERS

Petra Vega, Kari Burch

Petra Vega  00:07

Like I'm pretty because I exist, right and that humans are pretty and not that I need to do a particular thing to get love and attention and affection and respect. And so that's just been like, my life. My life's work is as well. How do I lean into that? I don't like unlearn all those things that told me that my voice didn't matter.

Podcast Producer 00:28

Welcome to the neurodivergent visionary podcast, where we co create a culture of neurodiversity affirming compassionate support for all. Whether you're neurodivergent neurodivergent, curious, a parent or a service provider. You are welcome here. Now here's your host, Dr. Carrie Burch, the neurodivergent occupational therapist and visionary coach on a mission to challenge the status quo, disrupt oppressive systems and transform the world, starting with each person's individual toolbox to work with our brains and not against them. And here she is.

Kari Burch  01:07

I am so excited to be joined today by Petra. Vega. She's a queer, black Puerto Rican from a tiny town in upstate New York, who after years of being told she should be seen and not heard at home and in the world, decided to reclaim her voice. After learning about the multi layered systems of oppression that were operating within and outside of her. Petro begin doing the inner and outer work of questioning, bailing and disrupting. As the founder of create more possibilities LLC. Petra helps mark marginalized nonprofit leaders in transforming the self doubt that is getting in the way of them leading in a way that feels good for them and their team. As a liberatory, leadership coach, emergent strategist, facilitator and radical social worker Petra waves and anti oppression lens healing tools and playfulness into who and how we lead thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. I would love to invite you to share anything else that feels present for you right now that you want people to know that you

Petra Vega  02:19

think I want. Some of the non professional stuff ran time a cat daddy, I self proclaimed myself to be she left to go on my Instagram and see pictures of her every so often. She's my kin. Oh, I think she's a cat now but you're like, she's my baby. It's a silicone. That is apart from you being Cat Daddy because I didn't really grow up with my dad. So I'm like, come on. We're gonna reclaim we're gonna take back all of it and I'm gonna be my own dad. that I needed. That for CLS. I'm a partner. I'm a big crier. I love crying. There's a lot to cry about these days. I practice Tarot. I love to write. And I think I'm gonna pick up singing like I'm thinking about like stuff that I want to do and just like next level of reclaiming my voice. I'm like, oh, I want to do some runs instead. I

Kari Burch  03:05

love it. Oh, thank you for sharing all the non professional things. I love that so much. Yeah. Do you have a fall? Huh? Well, I wanted to share too that I started following you on Instagram some time ago. I have no idea. But your work and the things you share have really, really impacted me. And you share about such important hard stuff in a way that's so approachable and empowering. And I feel like that's a balance that I am just playing with internally with stuff that I want to share about to how to share things in a way that sometimes part of me wants to shake my fist and yell about how important it is. But sharing it in a way that's that's like you said earlier before we start recording and feel successful and makes us one word and meeting people where they are so anyway, that's all I wanted winded way of saying thank you for all that you shared because even for me personally, it's been really, really, really transformative.

Petra Vega  04:26

I really appreciate that. I've heard that it that there is a way in which I talk about things that I make things heavy things lighter, but I haven't heard details around. Oh part of it is that I'm not just everybody. Can I pass on an ask that before? Oh, yes, absolutely. Okay. Well, look at this thing then like internally I feel that I think it kind of comes out to but also in a way. But is that is that going to get people to look at this thing. Right? And I think that part of the I think the ways in which you and eyeliners are like how do we do this in a way that is affirming and encouraging. And it's not just you suck do better than we've we've all heard that in so many ways. And I'm just like if that didn't work for us, then I don't know that that's the way in which it will work for us in the future. And so I just tried to like, be thoughtful about the ways that I can have people grapple with things in a way that they maybe haven't before that maybe that sense the ways in which we're looking at stuff that makes it harder than it than it is.

Kari Burch  05:24

Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And even just yesterday I so part of my current juggling right now is I'm an I tried to be an I am to be a neurodiversity affirming occupational therapist when I worked in a practice setting in which there's a lot of non affirming practices of use. So I have to collaborate with other professionals and yesterday, so I have been in this headspace of I'm so mad, that this is how it is and I do want to shake my fist but also I'm in sessions with kind, Karen P people who just don't know what being affirming looks like and how to tweak it and so I'm currently learning ways to have the conversations where I can be humble and open to meeting people where they are because I know I don't know them. I don't know them either. Like I don't know their world and they don't know why. And so yeah, you sharing that just now makes me think about in a world where a lot of activism is you just need to throw down and stand your ground but in the real interactions with people who have power and are doing things to help them feel comfortable to do things differently. That's not That's not how people feel safe.

Petra Vega  06:50

Yeah, right. And I think while you were talking I have like little sticky notes of things. And I'm like, I'm going to be dropping lots of little hooks and things. Because that's how my brain works. While you were talking it made me think about this. This thought that I have around emergent strategy which we'll get into and they were just trying to do a book where Adrian who wrote this book about emergent strategy groups, the easier being wrong is for you, the faster you release your viewpoint, the quicker you can adapt to changing circumstances since I think part of it is I know right, those of us that want to create change, it's like we might not know everything, and I think for those of us that like care and have perfectionism, that overlap is really fucking hard for us. Right? And so I just have this vote for me to be like, I may not know everything, and I may not see everything in the same ways that you were like, I don't know this person's complete worldview. I don't know how they came to learn and understand the things that they're doing. But what I can take ownership is like how I show up and whether or not I'm making invitations and I know that like you shared a post I think it was yesterday Oh my My internet showed it to me yesterday that you like had a conversation with someone around like, Oh, what about we do it this way? And that person was like super open to it right? And so how much of it is like to do we try to like in activism and change and change making to be like, Oh, how do I convince people force people to do something? When you and I had a separate conversation? Maybe we actually don't have any control? And really, it's what's within us that we can control and how does that become like an invitation a symbol, like an extension for other people to be like, oh, shoot, what are you doing over there? Like, why? This is neuro firming stuff, you seem happier. I'm just like, touch this is makes people happier. You know, when you just like unfurl these things. And I'm like, what if that was the entry point that people were like, are you looking good? You look rested? Are you taken? What is happening?

Kari Burch  08:46

I love it. Yeah. Yeah, thank you for that reflexive and that quote, I was just reaching in my pocket if you saw me like messing with stuff because I have this daily calendar and I it's not one of the ones I have in my hand but there was a quote I think it was from today that I just lost it but is was about the more you feel like you know, the harder it is to learn. So kind of got your toes together. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But what you just said about how can I make invitations How can I? How do I want to show up if less about being overwhelmed and not knowing enough or knowing too much? And more about what do I have right now that I want to get? Yeah. Thank you. So I would love for you to share even more about emergent strategy because this is a big part of your work and what you have shared with me through I've done a session with you and when in one of your playing shops, and the things that you've shared with me about it, and I have the book that I've been I've been reading I haven't read back to back, but I've been dabbling in it. Yeah, has been extremely supportive. So I want everyone to know about it.

Petra Vega  10:21

I love that. Yeah. I think part of my little scheme with this is if I can get people to get the book, I'm like, Oh, that's a win. That's such a win that I'm like, I'm gonna share a little bit and try to give like little easter eggs and my friend talks about Bush bushes just like a bush Bush a little appetizer what this thing is, but it will not begin to skim the surface. But so I'll start by saying that like the way that I came to learn about emergent strategy was in doing grassroots organizing, and I had learned about social justice and power privilege and college and so I was like, Okay, I feel like have a good enough understanding of back of like, where power lives where it doesn't, and now I'm just like, Okay, but how do we move power? Like how do we build power? How do people who don't have get to have how do people who have too much get get back into their like consciousness and back to their humanity to share it my friend had suggested this book to me around our strategy, and the idea the definition of it, which I feel like is might be a little a little complex, is that it's about how we shape and generate complex systems through relatively simple interactions. And so the way that I kind of take this from meat and meat is okay, if we want a world where people have like housing and food and care and education that is reflective of them. Right? I think one of the largest structures that I want, how do I chop that up into a tiny piece into that first, right like for me, that's okay. Am I using I support social work students and graduating and so I'm like, okay, am I using teachers? And frameworks that are black and brown people from queer people in my increased icluding frameworks that are indigenous and colonizing right? If I want a world where people can the education was reflective of them, how am I doing that? Right? That's one way that I kind of think about it. How do we like kind of get that the tiniest size? This work? is really about like, how do we collaborate with the planet at a time where we're like, really against the planet and other people. And so how do we realign to this idea that everything is interconnected? And if we know that, how do we act like it? And I put it in preparation for this podcast. I wanted to pull a few pieces around emergent strategy that I think would really resonate with folks who are doing it and so when you get the book because I'm like, you're gonna get it I'm gonna try to do my best so you're gonna get the book or read little, some little snippet somewhere. It was written by Adrian Marie brown who's like an activist and writer and singer and she's just whole bunch of shit 2017 And that's about how as how long is I've been like playing with them and integrating into my practice. And the framework is broken down into different elements. And principles are like these cute little word phrases and affirmations and things. And so the three that I had picked out for us, that's neurodivergent, folks the first one that I pulled out is the principles what are the little birdie things? Changes constant be like water? I think about this, I haven't really difficulty with transitioning and change. What might it be like for us to be like water and even like I was I just took a shower before I came to talk to you. And I was like, Oh, I'm like, I want to promote cold showers. So I've had an aha does that also change our sensory? Can that help us adjust straight? What are the ways in which we can use water in a fluid in the salad, in gas and all of these ways to help us move and think about water and that kind of way when we are trying to move from thing to them? That's another one that says less prep more of a presence. That's really all about for those of us that are like we need to plan so much and we like an over plan that we don't have jam pack all these agendas and that no one else can talk. Facilitator I'm like that makes me so sad. And I think about this for people like me who like to rehearse social interactions, right? That social anxiety is very real. So we're like, okay, there's all these scripts in my head and I'm like, Okay, well, that's an option. Another option is like, what if I was just present? What if I just paid attention to? I'm not going to try to think about what I'm going to say how can you talk? I'm just gonna listen. I'm going to verbalize that to you, too. So you know, when I take a beat, shoot, I'm listening. Carrie, let's go take I'm practicing. I'm listening, right, I'm present with you. And then the last one that I wanted to share. It's called what you pay attention to grows. I think those of us gonna get really hyper focus. Where, you know, like, our attention can go somewhere really, really deeply. I experienced this a lot that I'm like, Okay, if I know that I have this hyper focus ability, what am I focusing on? Right? And this one says, What you pay attention to grows and I'm someone who's like, I'm trying to look for the ways in which humanity isn't like killing each other. I'm trying to look for the ways and the evidence and the plan, it does know what to do with it, even if we do everything in our power is not in our power to buck it up and just try to just just regulate it. I'm looking for evidence of people saying things that they've ever said before, and what does it look like to like take up that space and to say that thing and other people who watch that stuff instead of like, thinking about Okay, where am I putting my attention if I know that I can focus into it, and how do I let that to grow?

Kari Burch  15:28

Yeah. Oh, those are all so important. And the first thing changes constantly like water and you said you just took a shower right before this. I like my core habit started I was like, I need to take an Epsom salt bath so I also got in the water was my friend and that really helped me get grounded. That's really funny. I love that. I love it. Yeah, and and you mentioned with transitions, so finding ways to help yourself. Transition to things for my brain is really interested in getting grounded or getting it's like not preparing but getting prepped to be present. And like goes into the second one. I love it. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. And yeah, transitions are really hard. And I like that idea to just constantly be like water.

Petra Vega  16:37

Yeah, and I offer like, I feel like each there's, I think 12 principles, and each one of them could be like, you could just lean into them as a practice for like a decade like I like maybe start like if they're all so complex, and I think just such they read I feel like so simple and so clear, but I'm like what to do them is actually really difficult and even, for example for me, I'm someone who I don't do New Year's resolutions to do that. But I do intention. So like, where's my focus, really? And so like me, and my universe algorithm knew that 2020 was gonna be a mess. And so my intention in the beginning of the year was be like water. It was fucking wet. That was a wet ass floody acid. And so really trying to lean into Okay, well shit, I'm still trying to go where I'm trying to go. But I need to go under. What kind of force do I need? Is it just more than me? How do I get surrounded by other people to move through this thing? Should I need to go over Can I hop skip jump oh

Kari Burch  17:44

I knew your your intuition knew that. We needed Yeah, girls don't we need what is your intention for this year?

Petra Vega  17:56

So this year, I decided to do a commitment. This is something that I had learned through some leadership embodiment training that was like, if someone looked at your life, what would they say about it? What do you want them to say about it? And seven years ago when I first did this training, it was like something around like how do I be balanced and stuff affirming partner in the struggle because I felt really early on in my activism and change making really insecure around what I brought and what I knew. And so I was like, oh, that's what I really want to lean into. Boom, it's emotional. It's I look back and I think earlier this year mean, oh, I don't need this anymore. I feel way more balanced. I'm way more affirming of myself. Okay, what am I trying to lead to now? And so this year, I decided to go with I have a commitment to fractal change. So really, leaning into this, what's the big role that I want? How do I break that up into little pieces, and try to replicate it right. And one example that I wanted to give around fractals, the idea if you look at your fingertips, that's an example of fractals around how the spirals can keep repeating over and over again and it's just okay. If I repeated something over and over again. What would ripple out eventually, right? We see spike we see spirals in the universe. So again, like nature knows what they're doing. We have weird nature. And thinking about okay, if I really want people particularly for me in my work, if I want people to be able to say that they whenever the thing is whether the thing is against power for power to power. I need to do that in what are the ways that I'm leaning into that stuff, to be an example for myself and to be part of my own evidence gathering of the world that I want to see. It's possible

Kari Burch  19:47

Oh, thank you so much for sharing all that. Oh my gosh, that is so beautiful to be able to look back and be like, Oh, I I have lifted into that and I'm ready for Lion and the deal that is to be self affirming.

Petra Vega  20:03

And I offer that that should took seven years. If anyone is listening and they're thinking about what their neuro type means for them, or if you gravitated towards this episode, because of this piece around reclaiming your voice that should take time and to also just want to be transparent around it's not a like from one day to another thing. It's a practice it's like choosing every day to say something to speak up for yourself right and whatever. Like some people it's easier to speak up for themselves. Other people it's easier to speak up for others. Use your voice, use the vocal cords or however whatever is your medium to speak right that might be writing or singing. Because you use that bang, he's that thing.

Kari Burch  20:47

Yeah. So reclaiming your voice is something you talk about a lot, and that's really important to you and yeah, I'm just sensing a lot. There's a lot behind that. Like wanting people who feel like they can say what they need to say that that's, that's important. And I'm wondering if you could say more about that.

Petra Vega  21:08

Yeah, I think for me personally since I grew up in a household, probably like many other people's households where I heard in Spanish there's this phrase that says gay that there is my Bonita which in English translate to your prettier if you want your quiet fuck that. It sounds so pretty, but that's a fact the best statement. It's I had heard and was surrounded by that statement. I'm sure listeners have other statements around things around silence and prettiness and worthiness and value and all of these things. And just like wanting to take that back for myself, right this like no, actually I'm pretty talking and science. Like I'm pretty because I exist right and that humans are pretty and not that I need to do a particular thing to get love and attention and affection and respect. And so that's just been like, my life. My life's work is how do I lean into that? How do I like unlearn all those things that told me that my voice didn't matter that I should be just at the fuckup really?

Kari Burch  22:18

Yeah. Oh

Petra Vega  22:28

yeah, I feel like you probably have a sense of that in your work to write the word like I wonder what kind of connections you make there.

Kari Burch  22:39

Well, I feel like it's so much it's like being comfortable speaking up or sharing whatever medium you want to share is that is self advocacy that's like, helping shape the world. And it's supposed to be when people who are marginalized can do that like how important that is to for the bigger vision that you have, of the world think more equitable and less oppressive and, and all the things and it made me think about how in my work as an occupational therapist, I'm like working with little kids who can't advocate for themselves like often they don't have communication or language. So I'm advocating for them. It's not that I'm advocating against specific people that I'm like advocating for them. Sometimes it is against specific strategies or ways of thinking about their capacity. And I and then there's, there's all these things about the other thing that came to me with having a voice is I one of the siblings of a little guy that I work with, is eight years old, and he just has been getting training and using his adaptive and augmentative communication device. Like he had a breakthrough a couple of weeks ago, where he was able to press the button that says, I don't like that. And like how I feel like that being his thing, and his mom was like, turn around and looked at him. To do Yeah, and she was like, No, I can. No, I can change what I'm doing because you didn't like what I was doing. I didn't know that. But now I can do something different and being able to say I don't like that, like how powerful is that? Oh, my God, especially when there's no like unequal power dynamic and you can't win, you're invited to speak up for what you like or don't like the rough what works for you and what doesn't work for you. But I think in a less concrete way, a lot of us like didn't ever get permission to say I don't like that. Right?

Petra Vega  24:53

No one No one No one gave us a man and some people didn't even know that was a button. Yeah, exactly. People No, no, they have buttons and I think I was talking to someone around powerlessness and around how they feel like a troublemaker at their job and then they're but they're feeling really lonely in that and so they were like, asking him you know, what, what do you think? What's the things we do to the test? And I was saying I'm like, Well, what do people feel powerless and they'll be like, Fuck, yeah, they don't think that anything can happen. And I was like, well, that we need to start there. Like people need to be able to actualize and see their power and see what happens. When it's like reclaimed and utilized. I just think about this kid that you're working with, and they're abusing their power. I mean, like, like that, right? And what's the response that I'm like, glad that this parent was like, Oh, sure, let me do better. Right. But I think that some of us then find the button, learn that there's a button, find wherever the fuck the button is, which I believe is very connected to neurodiversity. neurodivergent around, which is a button Where's, where's my button like? Well, somebody's mind is over here. And some people don't have a button. They have enough, you know? But then what happens when you actually use it? Right? And I'm glad that that that this kid is getting like some positive response. And I'm like, I feel like some of us either don't get as many positive responses. We learn to like silence and view our own voices. Or we don't we only get negative right but I'm just like how what what again, with this fractal piece around a little bit, and I'm like, okay, maybe they just need one more pebble a positive thing and so how can I even in my attractions be like, shoo, I really don't like what you said to me. But I want to shout you out for saying that even that and then engagement can be like really powerful for someone to be like, Thank you for acknowledging that this was really hard for me. Even though we're like in conflict or whatever.

Kari Burch  26:46

I think it's big. So big. Yeah, totally. It feels like there's so much of this. That's people need to be encouraged that their voice does matter. Yeah. And then they need to and then there needs to be evidence that when you do speak up, something happens. Yes. Feels like it's too not only too but like those feel like too big. Yeah,

Petra Vega  27:14

please. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I was I named my business create more possibilities, because that's one of the elements of emergent strategy is to create more possibilities and thinking about in the actions that we take and the decisions that we have, how do we continue opening the door for something else to be possible, right? And so for me, I'm like, if I say something either I'm gonna get the thing that I want. Yeah, right. Or I'm not gonna get the thing that I want. But then I get information about this scenario around like, I wonder why didn't get the thing that I wanted? Or you get information about the person who can What is it about this person and get the thing that I wanted? It from him just like it's just data like either way you get data versus and of course, depending on your positionality and your experience, this is not the case for everyone. But for me, I've just seen okay, but if you don't say anything, you get no data. You don't get what you want, and you get no data. I'm like, that's a double no doubt. Yeah, you know, which was the other way and I'm like, there's a possibility, you know, and so I'm always like, one of my beliefs is that in order for us to create more possibilities, then we have to see possibilities. And so then I have to going back to what you paid grows, I need to be like a possibility Inspector, I need to look for, like little hits humanity doing like, what, I think they'll be great for us, you know, and for the planet. You know, it's I have to look for those things. So how do I look for that right, or do I just resolve myself which I'm like, I make space for that to them, like, everything's awful. But then I gotta get up.

Kari Burch  28:59

I really like that. Yeah. Yeah. It really makes me I'm like reverse calculating. So what do you want to be growing? And then what do you feel then? What do you need to pay paying attention to? Is that

Petra Vega  29:20

okay? Yes, yes, I always start like, one of the in the work that I do, like we talk about vision alignment, like what's what is in your vision? What do you want to be true? What's the world that you want in the grandest scales? And then okay, how do you how do you write science back for the access that you actually have? I feel like some of it when people get into activist and change making and I don't know if this is, this might just be the ways in which people get into it. And I'm curious to hear this has been like your experience to carry that I feel like we get into it, you learn that like it does happen to you're like I'm gonna change everything. And you're like that. That is that the issue is it's such a scale that you actually can't manage right and so then what do you do then you like then you have some ignorance is bliss you're like fucking there's nothing I can do about it. Somebody does not do nothing. Right or see, well, okay, what else is what's another possibility he was you gotta give us what people do. Are there other people who are interested in doing some shit okay, maybe but it's one of the ways that you like to Okay, keep chopping around and then maybe in the process you're like, wait a minute, the world that I actually want. It's actually not as the majority as I thought it was because someone else get their vision includes even more people than mine did. Can you? Can you stretch out your vision some more to be like, oh, shoot my vision includes this person and that person and this person. That to me is like how often part of the piece runs practice? How do we replicate these things right and even asking in the shower, again, preparing for the for the podcast, that I'm like, even I had an argument with my partner yesterday, and I went silent. I'm like, Shit, I don't want to live in a world where people get into arguments and they go silent. So then I'm like, oh, still silent. So you give yourself a grace around where you are, but also, it gives you the gut check around. Sure. Do I want to live in a world where people are like stonewalling or just like the date, there's just no compromise. There's no turning back to it. And I'm like, Okay, I want to live into that world. It's going to require me to stretch a little bit to do something like fit into that is a growing edge for me, but that's the thing that gets me to do the bang, because I'm like, that's the world that I want. And I know that part of the reason that like we can look at the world that looks so shitty that we're like, oh, people can't make decisions. They can't work together. And I'm like, if you try to get a group of people to work together, it's just hard. But so the practice right like we can talk shit about people the power, I'm here for that. And also, they don't their skills that they don't have there's a ways in which that they are behaving, but do we know have them? Are we creating little pockets, little circles that are communities of people that are like okay, they can make a decision. We build consensus. We came to the system together. How do we do that? Talk to some people share what you're learning. Stop me Carrie. I could keep going. I can keep

Kari Burch  32:04

I don't want to stop you. I love it. Yeah, I think that there's that that even ties back to if you're looking at what the grand vision and if you're like, Well, I can't do that. So it may as well not do anything when you're in powerlessness and hopelessness. And no possibility. So it makes sense to scale back to one word. How do I live that in like my day to day life? Day? And how do I find evidence of change being possible in what I can do? Yeah, and even just tangentially related the, the i i often lose my words when I'm really really stressed like there's a lot of conflict like I literally can no longer access language so I do get quiet and it looks like stonewalling but sometimes I literally cannot. And so part of that is permission to always come back. Like time to be like a script or something to say, I want to keep going in this conversation. I need time to regroup or whatever, or have it written down or something. And that's like the routine so yeah, it's but it's acknowledging like, where's the things that you that are frustrating? And then what, then what do you do in your power there?

Petra Vega  33:26

Yeah. And for me, what's the what's in the overlap that I think about like there's these two very cool like, Jewish activist that came up with something called the vet diagram, V and T Have you heard about this? No, no, you gonna be upset, you'll be anti diagrams. And so they had taken a Venn diagram, you know, those like overlapping circles, and then in the middle, they're like, Okay, well, here, here's the overlap. Here are two contradicting ideas, but there's overlap here. And so what I hear you talking about is like on one side, because okay, I don't want to go silent. I don't want to avoid this conversation or hide away particularly for those of us that may have some conflict aversion or like conflict feels unsafe for us or a variety of reasons that someone else and then on the other side is legit though. When I get into some shit I literally cannot I do not have words, right. And so what's the overlap? Is what you're coming up with around. Can we like the overlap is this bridge between both of these two things can be true, right? I feel like being an adult. One of the lessons that I've learned that those that happens, right, we want things to be like clear black and white that see that we're just always openly communicating and we just like never and there's a messy middle here, right? And so what's the bridge that we can live in to around like, why want to live in a world where people can openly communicate and express grievances or needs or wanting things? But also there's a way in which I operate what's the spread? Try this. Can we come back? My brain is very bad to prove himself very nervous about where we go. Can we come back? Right and then but for me, I'm just like, as long as you come back, as long as you come back, return to it. And then I'm really, I'm really committed to the people that I engage with us, for them to stay in this work for as long as possible that I'm like, we need all of us. Change is gonna require lots of us, and how do I do more of a stay in it longer, right, because people get burnt out and they leave. They're like fuck it. I'm gonna just go get like a barndominiums. No shade the barndominiums. But there's work to be done. Right. So like, take, take your breaks. Exactly. You need to peace out. Come back. Make sure to come back.

Kari Burch  35:37

Yeah, totally. Oh, I really liked that Venn diagram and I was even thinking that about the hard conversations where people are coming with two different visions or protests, and it's like, what do we will fly and how can we both have that so that was definitely part of my tough conversation. That went fine yesterday. You're wanting to see this and I want you to see this. So how can we find a place where we can both get what we want?

Petra Vega  36:11

Yeah, what's next best step? What's the next best step? That's literally it? Because I'm just like, Can we can we continue to be in movement, right? Because after we continue to be in movement, then it's okay. We take the step and we try there's a spot and we figured out there's about it, okay, that we both are. Okay, what's the next best thing we can do? Like again, I think it's like one of the ways in which capitalism encroaches and we're like, has to be like, big and grand, and like black and white, flashy and it's like it might not be it might be a teeny tiny thing, but do the teeny tiny thing every day, as many times a day as you can, you know, what, what can that amount to

Kari Burch  36:51

love it. And in that are you talking about small as all

Petra Vega  36:59

people are like, well, I could do a smart thing. You can just do the thing. Just do it.

Kari Burch  37:06

I love that Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I'm looking at the time I'm like, Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh. So let me ask you what, what else feels important to you that you work to the actual thing right now to know

Petra Vega  37:31

that I think I wanted to share just like a little bit about the ways in which I came into my understanding as a neurodivergent person, because I was listening to some of your other guests on the podcast. And I think one thing that I wanted to add to just add to the picture of people who are exploring or thinking about this thing that I had come into understanding this really from this lens of anti oppression and anti ableism and really seeing the ways in which again, I feel like we think about social justice or change and we can focus on race and gender, those things are important. But I've also always add part of my math has always been around like one of the ways in which ability is here, particularly my background as a social worker. They were always like, I get very, very ticked off and people use the word crazy. And I just think about oh, I just that we are we just live in a society culture where the way that that person thinks and what that person sees or hears or whatever, is not normal here, right? But but if you put that right within a different context, that person is like a spiritual healer, you know, because they hear certain things right or this person like me about some of the ADHD folks that I know and they're like, fabulous visual artists and just architectural people that I'm like, we need all of those things. Right. And so I think for me, I just wanted to add that the piece that I kind of came to it with is around neurodivergent being like a social justice issue, you know, and not just is that being something that's different and not necessarily deficient, even though I can see totally the ways in which it makes things challenging for us, but I think I just wanted to add that layer to that for folks who are navigating what this means for them. That also to add this way around power and privilege, right as you're navigating your day to day and maybe you're like, I just can't do this thing, right? Lazy like all of these things again, kind of like the voice that was big loudest for me was just going around, needing to shut the fuck up whatever that voice is like and you will lay around power privilege and oppression. And tell me if that has changed the way this voice sounds to you.

Kari Burch  39:41

I love that. Thank you so much. I think that obviously is that is without that this whole thing is so much less powerful. And it's that people need to give more, and so I'm so glad that you said that. Thank you so much. We can do what I want to I'm writing this down because I love him so much power, privilege and oppression. And I love that I feel like that. Those words and even just most anything that I know a lot of my clients will say to me, I don't know why I can't I should be able to act no matter what. So and So says I should be able to act and if you ask that question ah who said

Petra Vega  40:46

Who does it benefit? Let's see that was like what is the benefit if it makes you feel like shit? I mean, I don't I don't think that everything is is has to be pleasing and easy, but I'm like what if it makes you feel like dog shit though? I don't know about that. That would perked my ears. Totally and I think it brings us back to the conversation the beginning around like, how do we want to get the work right? Do you want do you want the motivation to be like what? Well, someone made me feel like dogshit so I did the quote unquote right thing. I don't want to be moved by that. So I'm not going to do that then. We'll learn when we're working. Practicing towards that not being the motivation that I do. That segment connects me to other people in the planet better. Right?

Kari Burch  41:37

Yeah, instead of instead of shame or othering being connected to you to action. Don't know what to see what is your voice and what do you really need and want and feel and see could be different here. And that really really matters? Yeah. Oh, by the way, you

Petra Vega  42:00

put that get write that down. That was good, too. That was good, too. It's not just I have no idea what I just said. It's good. It was good.

Kari Burch  42:14

Well, thank you. So much for this conversation. I am so grateful for you and for your time and for who you are. And we'll make sure that there are links for people to get in touch with you and follow your work in the show notes. But I also wanted to ask if there if people wanted to work with you wanted to spend more time with you with like, I know they will. What what are some of the ways they could do that? Yeah,

Petra Vega  42:45

I think I'm pretty high on Instagram like mostly on there any internet streets that will be on the internet streets because there's someone with social anxiety. I'm not leaving the house some that are new but on demand and you don't catch people to find me on internet you can say hi on Instagram at create more possibilities. But from there you can like get I made a workbook because I love emerging Chinese so much and so that might be the bridge you're like okay, I don't want to write the I don't want to get the book yet. It's a workbook. I give you a little some some questions relating to each of these practices and principles and maybe you're like, Oh, I really liked this and around attention or maybe like this around being smallness and all these other things. I have some prompts to get you going called a shaping change workbook. You can get that on in my links. On Instagram. That I do coaching. I do workshops from stuff so there are ways there are ways for us to be together.

Kari Burch  43:38

Yeah, and I I really have gotten so much from doing a session with you and doing being in your work. Place shops. And so I highly, highly, highly recommend because I think the way that you approach things feels accessible and possible. I mean, yeah. It doesn't feel like some I feel like some places where people who want to make change or feel like they're trying to change how they're acting or showing up it can feel so either cognitively rigorous or it can feel so hard. And I feel like you present these super nuanced complex ways. of thinking in ways that that is so gettable. And yeah, so

Petra Vega  44:32

good because I My people are folks who listen to this things I'm like, I'm trying to save time think about all the what are all the different kinds of brains. I'm doing my best open to the bank opens up the bank. Thank you so much, Carrie, that means a lot to me.

Kari Burch  44:45

Thank you. Thank you for your time today.

Podcast Producer 44:49

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please follow rate and review to help others find us. Check out the show notes to learn more about the community wisdom collective, a place to take your creative or business practices from isolated to extraordinarily supported through wisdom titrating skill sharing, and revolutionary collaboration amongst other neurodivergent and highly sensitive humans. See you in the next step.